I'd like some feedback and ideas

[Biggbear]

I am in the process of putting together an Outdoors show and would like your feed back on my idea. Before all the negativity starts I know exactly how difficult this is, I know what's involved, this isn't just some get rich scheme, and I've done the home work. With that being said I'm thinking along the lines of a show that would cater to the Every Day hunter. No shows from The Sanctuary deer ranch in Hale, the average guy can't afford it. I want to promote activities the average guy can afford to do with his family. If you were to watch a show that was taped on State land and no deer was taken would you watch again? The average hunter doesn't get a deer every trip out, so would you watch something based in reality, or do you want to see success on every show. I think there are plenty of things to do in Michigan that aren't shown on our current choices. I go and fish the rivers for steelhead and salmon in the spring and fall, I never see that on TV now. No pier fishing, no squirrel hunting, none of the things the average guy does. If you tune in this time of year most of the shows are Charter trips for Salmon. Well alot of guys can't afford to go on a $450 charter. Please let me know what you think, but try and be polite.

[Kelly Johnson]

Hey Bear....I see a niche that could be filled too. I think it's a great idea myself.

I've seen a few shows that have aired unsucessfull hunts and I was always kinda bummed.

I know that many go plenty and never connect...hell, I'm one of them and I don't want to see that ;)

Squirrel hunting, rabbit, pier fishing...there's plenty of stuff to shoot there.

I would make a suggestion that you show harvests of does, fawns, spikes....whatever is realistic and taken on a particular parcel. THAT is the reality I'd prefer to see.

I'm not a big Nugent fan but he's happy as a schoolgirl and airs it every time he smacks a 90lb doe and for that I applaud him.

[just ducky]

Sure people would watch. That's why many of us grew up watching Mort Neff in the old days, and even Trost :hide: in his early years. The draw for me and my friends always was that it was MICHIGAN activities, and they often were not getting limits of fish, or the biggest buck. MUCC's show is similar....they show even when they don't get a turkey, or they don't limit out on Salmon. So yes, I think you'll find that there is an audience for that.

[Randy Kidd]

sounds like a good idea to me, small game, perch,crappie, catfish and bluegill fishing, more muzzleloader hunts and tips ( traditional and inline), limits and trophy kills are not a must, but it is more interesting to watch how an "expert" does it. and we all equate an expert as someone who pretty much always does well. if the show was geared more towards "joe six pack" who has limited time and limited resourses i think it would be a winner..

[LilyDuck]

Limits and trophies are not what make the hunt if you could display the emotion that is out in the feild when your there you have a winner. TIPS,TIPS,TIPS...Why do you think that so many people use this forum...THey can get good information...Take that to the next level, being able to broadcast it.

GOOD LUCK IN WHATEVER YOU DECIDE...

Jason

[hunting man]

Sounds good. Too many times i have watched them shoot deer in those enclosures. That is out of reach of the average hunter and those places arent catering to us any way. Charter fishing trips are reasonable fishing trips for the average working man I think.

I have access to plenty of private land(several counties) perfect for filming a show. If you need a place to film ducks, geese or deer hunts. Just ask and I will help you out. I can get you on the Detroit River, Lake St.Clair and Lake Erie as well. Fishing or hunting there often with my friends and yes we are Joe Average working stiffs.

[skulldugary]

As long as you are going to be doing some fishing,how about some ice fishing.You don't get to see a lot of that on tv.Good luck on you show and hope it works out for ya.

[mparks]

If I was trying to find a niche in the outdoors TV market, I would try and focus on the comraderie(sp?) aspect that we don't see too often. Be nice to see a cast of a few hunters every week doing normal hunting. The best shows on the old Michigan Outdoors were either the deer camp shows or shows where someone invited the gang to come hunt pheasants or something. I don't know how you would keep thing interesting from week to week.

I think the current Michigan-out-of-Doors is pretty darn good but I don't really identify with the cast too much. They seem real nice and everything, maybe too nice. Ted and Fred are too nuts form me, but Jimmy et al are a little too boring.

I'd think that business would be a tough nut to crack. I'd imagine Michigan-out-of-Doors is so good because it is MUCC and not really a private company(I don't think) so making money isn't #1.

Good luck! There is certainly a spot open on Thursday nights at 8:00 on the PBS stations.

[victor mi pro bowhunter]

sounds great would love to see some smallgame hunts and state land hunting.real hunting not the fake game ranch crap they got now.It would not bug me a bit not seeing you get a deer every time out.The fun is in the chase

[Chuck]

One of the things you could do is have a veiwer video segment where guys could send there video of themselfs missing a deer or getting a deer. Or even if some sent in stuff on fishing or whatever. Every week it could be a small segment to supplement the show. Ther is so much video out there that people shoot of themselves hunitng, its gotton so popular.

Also maybe a segment on game camera pics, like the most interesting one sent in for the week. Either the biggest buck or funniest pic. YOu could do viewer videos of interesting stuff cought on camera. LIke deer beahvior, like sparing and stuff. This could save money on your end using and editing film that someone else shoots.

As archery season comes up have a few segments on tuning your bow, and maybe using a few different tuning methods, like a how to segment. Even go so far as setting up your bow right in the first place, I mean realy go into not gloss over it in 5 min. Have a whole show explaining FOC, FPS, arrow spine and all else archery.

I dont think there would have to be a kill every time but the hunts on MUCC and Freds shows are lame at best most of the time. There footage is bad at best. So learn not what to do by watching them. Drury Brothers show misses and theres time when they cant get a shot and thay show that too. MUCC has had good video hunts but they are inconsistent. In other words if cant get good video dont show it.

You could do some shows on do it your self hunts out west. Not hunting out west, but what you have to learn about to start to do it. Like rules and regs and liscence cost and prospects for diferent species in dif. states.

You could have how to on using a GPS, compass, reading topo maps to look for deer, reading ariel maps and places to find them.

YOu could show proper shot placement on deer. Anything educational like that would be very benificial for every one.

You could do interviews with the real good deer hunters in MIchigan to get there perspectives on what they do to succeed.

It would be great to see squirel, rabbit and duck and every other kjinds of hunting and fishing too.

A bikini contest would be good too! ;)

[Biggbear]

Thanks alot for the quick replies and ideas, please keep them coming. It sounds to me like there are quite a few people out there that have the same thoughts on our Outdoor show selections as I have. I personally think there are plenty of activities to film in Michigan, and ways for the average Joe Sportsman to enjoy hunting and fishing without spending the big dollars. I personally would rather watch a show where people have given permission to hunt and the host takes a nice doe, than I would watch a buck taken in a high fence operation. I have nothing against those operations, it's just that the price puts it out of reach of many people, and it isn't really very realistic to see 6 or 8 monster bucks staning together. I think that as sportsmen and women we are the luckiest people in the country. We have great deer hunting, waterfowl, turkey, fishing for species many only dream of, predator hunting, trapping, upland birds and many more, to take advantage of. The best thing is that with a little effort they are accessible to every Joe Sportsman out there. Not only do I think we have a great State to enjoy but some of the nicest people I've ever met I've met in the field or on the water, I'd like to show that aspect too. Thanks again for your help and ideas, keep thme coming, I am paying attention to what you would like to see.

[PrtyMolusk]

Howdy-

Heck yes, I'd watch!

Tips on deer camps, like building an outdoor shower, maintaining a warm and dry tent, care and handling of game, and all the thousands of suggestions that we seem to come up with every season! ;)

Heck, if you could keep it clean enough, just film a bunch of M-S members around a campfire for an hour or so.... :yikes:

You can't imagine the laughs we've had just BS'ing at the Pig Roast late at night. ;)

[Linda G.]

Your ideas, although admirable, are not unique. A lot of the current Michigan programming shows exactly what you'd like to do-in fact, one of the suggestions, for viewer home videos, is an idea that Jimmy at MOOD implemented this year, and would like to do as often as he can...the problem-getting quality video. You can't put stuff that's so wobbly you can't see the subject on tv...as for squirrel hunting, I've done at least 3 squirrel hunting shows with MUCC over the years, probably more, and I've seen several others. Jimmy did a great camp feature about the guys in a typical bear hunting camp a few years ago, as well as the family deer hunting camp a year ago, and he does so much bluegill in ponds stuff that he sometimes tells me he has to do a lot less-people get bored.

Even Rob Trott did a segment not long ago on fishing a pond with his 3 year old grandson for bluegill...But the fact is, the reason you see so many deer and turkey segments on all these shows is because that's what the overall sporting population wants to do themselves, and what they want to see on TV. Since that's the case, that's what the sponsors want, too, and all too often, sponsors have a big say in what is aired on television today. That's why you see a lot of stuff on how to grow a food plot, how to rig a bow, sight in a shotgun, etc. Rigging an outdoor shower would be a good one-get one of the manufacturers to sponsor you.

Getting footage of a bunch of guys around a campfire that met each other on a website would be of interest to the members of the website, but probably seen as drivel by the general public-unless one of those members knew someone like Fred Bear and could recall stories about him. Then you might see some interest from the general public, otherwise, you'd need a sponsor like the members of MS to foot the bill to air things like that...

But generally, the public wants to see stuff that's EXCITING and stimulating to them-big bucks do that, so do big turkeys, etc. They also want to hear about places they can go to have that excitement themselves. That's why you see so much preserve and charter fishing stuff.

Ice fishing is something that everyone can do, yes, and lots do-but let's face it, most of the time ice anglers are sitting over a hole in the ice, drinking coffee or beer and shooting the breeze with their buddies while occasionally reeling in a 3 inch dink perch. Pretty dull stuff to the general public. I know I see enough ice fishing on TV to last me a while-but I turn to TV to entertain me and interest me, ESPECIALLY in the winter, when life is pretty dull everywhere else.

Good luck to you, we can always use more quality outdoor programming...

[Rudi's Dad]

Great idea, but it would go stale fast. How many times can you go bluegill fishing, cause there is no money to charter a salmon boat? Besides, that other Oudoor show with a guy named Kyle something is ok. I think he started out like that, but had to go on pay for hunt/fish trips for interest, besides you get offered free trips if you show em on your tv show. Gotta take advantage of that.
I would watch another outdoor show. Go for it.

[Barry]

Sounds like Linda has some insight on the reality of marketing an outdoor show. While her response may have brought the excitemet level of this post down a little, I think she offers good advice.

If your really an average guy, than you need to raise money to fund your idea. I believe that capitalizm is an importatant ingrediant for any busienss venture (I regard your program as a business venture). Good programing that stands the test of time depends on people being willing to pay. Advertising is the most common method of funding but there might be others such as seminars, forums. You might even think about forming a charitable foundation or not-for profit organizaion such as MUCC to support your programming idea. Of course, once you reach a point where people are watching, raising money becomes the easy part.

More to the point. Average people don't want to watch average. Move it up a notch to a theme of average people experienceing their best hunt ever. Also, offer a variety of stuff. Us average people don't have a long attention span so short "how to" segments might hold our attention. How to scout for deer. How to gain permission, how to use a GPS, how to sight in a rifle........

Another idea would be to include some comedy. How hunt camps are named; a spoof on game ranches. How about a kid on his first deer hunt where you build up to where he has a 10 point in his sights and he wakes up from a dream to find a doe in from of him. After words of wisdom from grandpa on the importance of harvesting does, he shoots. After everyone in camp congratulates him, you do a recipe for deer liver and onions.

[deputy]

for those that the hunts are free i have news for you there not free!

some are discounted but then you have air fair, travel expense's tag fees, and more, most shows get a discounted hunts since the market is flooded with shows.

viewer segments are nice ideas, as linda says, a lot of editing time has to be done and some times there not show quality or the wrong format to be shown, and there is only so much fishing to be shown on tv before you loose intreset of others that say dont fish there are a lot of fine lines to look at in this buisness, by the way his name is klye randall.

[Biggbear]

Linda

I agree my ideas are not unique, there have been several people post here that have similar thoughts. As for your reference to MOOD while I think it is the best of the Outdoor shows we currently have I personally don't care for it. They show far to many reruns for having a decent size bucget, when it is a new show it's the same subject matter. I personally don't care for the format, or the time spent out of the field on Legislative issues. I don't like the lack of variety in what they do each week, there are alot more things to hunt and fish in Michigan than they cover. I may very well try and fail, but I can't do much worse than some. I think that Sportsmen and women know there is more to the Outdoors than connecting on a deer or turkey every week, if that's all there was to the Outdoors why would we be there, we aren't successful every time out. This thought process that TV shows have to be "exciting" by producing on camera every time is getting away from why we're there in the first place. I think Joe Sportsman can be entertained without seeing Moby Buck taken every week, at least I'm banking on that premise.

[quackmaster]

I think its a great idea and im more than sure that average MI sportsman, like myself, would be happy to take you out on a hunt in their fav. spots to show off a llittle, I dont think finding enough variety of hunts will be a problem. Heck, if you need somebody to be the star, just let me know:lol: . I fish bass, ice fish, salmon fish, fly fish, duck hunt, deer hunt, small game hunt, i hunt private and public lands, just let me know. I would love to see a segment on hunting a managed area for ducks and geese, like shiawassiee or fish point. This sounds like a great idea and after watching PBS and seeing only 1 hunting show (MUCC) lbroadcast last night, im missing my thursday night preseason hunting shows, nothing gets you more pumped for hunting season than that lineup. Go ahead with your ideas, the viewer are already there but will lose interest fast unless you start soon, only one hunting show thursday doesnt cut it. I would also love to see a show that reveals all of the snagging and illegal activity going on during salmon season in the rivers, maybe that would open some eyes in MI and get the DNR to start patroling those areas more often.

[just ducky]

Linda does make good points about the marketability side of this. If you're like me and you've been an outdoor fanatic for over 30 years, you've definitely noticed the change in attitude among those younger people coming on. Let's face it...society as a whole has changed into one of "instant gratification" and excitement. But having said that, there is still an audience....albeit limited.

Don't want to hijack the thread or start an argument, so please don't jump on WHO I mention here, but go ahead and jump on my concept if you need to. If you were able to go back and view any of Fred Trosts early work...I'm saying from the early 80's to about early 90's...or Mort Neff's in the 60's, those shows were very similar to that which you describe. They included several outdoor topics, based in Michigan, that the average person may be interested in, from photography, to hunting and fishing, to cooking, camping, etc. Or sometimes had human interest stuff related to the outdoors like tame deer or partridge. But society and times have changed in 25 or more years....the average person, especially those under 30 (no offense intend to those in that age group), don't really care about those things anymore. Just not "hip, cool, and exciting". Again, the "instant gratification" age we've entered. My opinion of the downfall of Trost (again, please don't hijack this thread), and likely will take down Rob Trott, is that they tried to change with this, and to do more current and hip things like travelling outside of Michigan. By doing so, they lost sight of the audience that those old shows catered to (like myself). This is where the cable outdoor tv shows have grown a niche, and my opinion is local shows like Trost and Trott will never be able to compete with the big money cable shows that are out there. MUCC's would have a hard time competing against the Saturday morning cable outdoor line-up...just can't compete with that type of sponsorship.

But having said all of that, if you have the funding/marketing issue figured out, and plan for a limited audience (I'll go out on a limb and make a generalization.....few people under 30 will watch your show for too long ;) ), you should be able to make it work. I wish you luck, and look forward to seeing your work.

[Swamp Monster]

I like your idea and think it is well intentioned, but I have to agree with Linda about the excitement and entertainment part. I can go almost anywhere in Michigan and watch small bucks and does etc. But often times, I want the hunting shows to take me to places or put me in situations I otherwise probably wouldn't have. Sitting in a tree with the Drury's on an evening when they spot an 180"+ deer is pretty exciting, kill or no kill. Most of us don't have that oppurtunity. Does it raise my standards and my expectations? Sure it does, put I'm also realistic. I like to watch these shows because the take me places I cannot go. I would also watch a show similar to your idea as well, don't get me wrong, just not sure how many others would. And the sponsors want the show to air succesfull hunts using their products.....if you can't be successful on a regular basis, the sponsor will look elsewhere. They are trying to sell a good, and if the user of that good isn't successful regulary, the sponsor is not going to want his product associated with it.
Maybe financially, sponsorship is not a big issue, But I can't imagine you're interested in doing this for fun, nor can I imagine you would want to spend $1000's of dollars of your own money just to entertain others.
I lvoe the home vide segments, but as others have said, lots of footage out there, but not a lot of tv quality footage. Realtree used to have a home video series, but they have not offered a new video in about 4-5 years. I think the time it took to sort through all the crappy footage to get one good segment was just too much and they scrapped an otherwise great idea.

I'm not trying to be negative, even though it sounds that way, but it's easier to think of all the positive things about a show than some of the negative aspects. I still think their is an oppurtunity for a succesfull general outdoor Michigan based show

[Bonz 54]

BigBear,

Your idea for a new Outdoors show is a good one. And there have been alot of great suggestions here, but there is a problem. MONEY. The cost to produce a show is Enormous. I have a very good friend who had an Outdoors show here in Michigan for several years. He was forced to give it up and eventually went into semi-retirement and moved out of state. There was a survey done once, don't remember who did it, but he was voted the most Trusted Host in Michigan Outdoor television. His name is Jerry Chiappetta. I worked with Jerry on several of his TV episodes, all of his Award winning Wild Harvest Video's, and there was always worry about being able to afford a production. Thankfully, everything would work out, but the pressure to produce on a constantly tightening budget causes alot of stress. Now Cameras are cheaper (expensive, but cheaper), there are Computers you can buy to do post production work at home, but the simple part of travel costs these days could be a killer.

You are correct, there are enough subjects right here in Michigan to focus on. Every kind of fishing, hard water or soft, and all kinds of hunting. I remember watching a show on rabbit hunting with Slingshots. They had a riot! And it was fun to watch. There are other subjects besides the typical hunt'n and fish'n show. Outdoor crafts, building your own fishing rod, or a Self-Bow, or arrows, game calls, and Outdoor cooking. Blind location, show them where and why to put a blind in a certain spot and then show the results.

Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck. Watch out for the costs. You might not be doing it to make a Million, but the idea is to make it. As with all the rest, if you need any help don't hesitate to ask. FRANK

Bonz 54
Too much is never enough.

[mpatmcg]

I think a segment on processing your game (birds, small game, deer, etc.) would be a good idea.

[Lucky Dog]

Great Idea, I'd watch.

[quackmaster]

I think you should have an on going segment where you start in the spring by planting clover/crop, etc. giving instructions along the way, then throughout the year get one of those cameras and put up photos of deer being spotted, and maybe a baiting type thing where you try out the deer cane or one of those electronic bucket feeders, then in the summer get out there with the camera film the crop growth, and do some scouting/filming of deer on your prop., then in the fall when it comes time get out in the woods and get one and show the results of hard work. This would be a great segment for sponsors to be a part of as you could try different products in the woods and get the results. THis would not be shown for a full show, just a little segment on how its coming along on every show and what new products you are using then in the fall you have a place to hunt and get footage. I bet something along these lines would be great. I would watch and learn, you could have a biologist that tells what conditions to look for in planting clover and how to clear and take care of your crops. Man it would be great. And also im in the under 30 age group, maybe having a young co-host may help reach out to the younger audience, seeing as we do have some different views at times.:lol: THere is a lot of potential.

[just ducky]

BigBear,
I have a very good friend who had an Outdoors show here in Michigan for several years. He was forced to give it up and eventually went into semi-retirement and moved out of state. There was a survey done once, don't remember who did it, but he was voted the most Trusted Host in Michigan Outdoor television. His name is Jerry Chiappetta....

I believe a lot of the draw of a show has to do with who the host is. I remember Jerry's show, and quite honestly in thinking way back then (God I'm old :yikes: ), his personality just didn't seem right for that show (NO OFFENSE INTENDED Bonz 54, and this is just my two cents). I think it had a lot to do with the fact that came immediately after Mort Neff, which was a very hard act to follow. Trost's show is a good example...way back when in the early years, he had a good personality and acted pretty normal. Even had the DNR on his show a lot :yikes: Then Garner joined him, and he had a really solid team there, with a large following. Then came the lawsuit, etc., and he changed his style dramatically and the show went down the tubes.

So I guess in thinking about this, the personality and charisma of the host has as much to do about liking a show as the topic....just my two cents.

[DANNY ELLER]

watch what about buy I would pay for video of everyday hunting with tips and know how. When did you see any shows with squirrel dogs or coon hunting at night. Those are the shows that I would like to watch over and over again. Take a 12 year old with a good squirrel dog and there is a lot of action.

[Barry]

[QUOTE=Then came the lawsuit, etc., and he changed his style dramatically and the show went down the tubes.

I think that Fred felt burned by the lawsuits and used his show to wage his personal editorial views. In my opinion, the lesson you can learn from Fred's mistakes is don't use your show to convey your personal editorials on your listeners. As the host, you facilitate any opinions that are shared so that it stays focused on sportsment but reflects a the balance of views shared by your target audiance. That does not mean you give air time to anti hunters because they are not the target audiance.

Another suggestion: Target your show at sportsmen/women but also keep in mind that most of your listeners might be non hunters and fishers. Not anti's but women, kids and adults who if introduced to positive aspects of hunting and fishing would either support our sport or maybe join us. This would be in contrast to antics of Ted Nugent (for example) where we see him licking deer blood off the blade. I suggest you focus on the outdoor experience rather than the gore and thrill of the kill. Ted's antics are not helpful in expanding our ranks and actually serve to place a wedge between the hunting and non hunting population. We have a battle on our hands to protect our hunting and fishing heritage and unfortunatly, we're loosing it.

I wish you luck with your show.

[jakeo]

I applaud you on the great idea....GOOD LUCK!
Just a thought......((if it hasnt been suggested)).....maybe a kids section with some pics ??
Its to bad here i cant recieve it...(Toledo), unless channel 30 has nothing better to put on.
:confused:

[hunting toolmaker]

I think that a realistic outdoor show would be great! I am sick of watching guys pass up a great buck because he has a tine broken, or a G-2 isnt quite long enough. Those guys(and gals) pass up deer that most of us would be proud to take.Time after time I see them pass up a buck of a lifetime for us average hunters. I feel that they are putting way to much emphasis on the horns, which you cant eat, then what we are really out there for. I also think it would be a great idea to offer to other hunters a chance to show their hunt on tv. If someone were to videotape their hunt and send it to you might help you out with some episodes.

[Chuck]

I wouldnt let others on the site disuede you from following your heart on your ideas. Just becouse others have not been able to make it work does not mean you cant. Most people who are successful do not listen to nay sayers and follow the beat of ther own drummer.

If it didnt work for others than figure out why and find a new angle to make it work for your show.

I know talking to other hunters that guys in general are sick of seeing the high fence hunting, the guy who couldnt hunt a paper bag in a paper mill looking for big bucks and giving advice on how to hunt. Its not interesting for most to watch a guy sit over a green field and shoot a deer 200 yards away with a rifle.

90% of the stuff on the outdoor cable shows is pure crap. Its fun to watch for a week or 2 then you get sick of it. I have few friends who dont pay extra for the outdoor channels becouse they got sick of it after a year.

Most shows lack substence and the show you seem to want to do sounds like it would have that.

Keep the faith! :)

[deputy]

I think that a realistic outdoor show would be great! I am sick of watching guys pass up a great buck because he has a tine broken, or a G-2 isnt quite long enough. Those guys(and gals) pass up deer that most of us would be proud to take.Time after time I see them pass up a buck of a lifetime for us average hunters. I feel

what most dont know is these guys are limited to the deer they can shoot! on some of these shows and least the canned ones, the outfitters have several rules you have to follow! only certian types of deer may be taken! kids are another thing! release forms are needed at times depending on what the tere being used for!. danny! coons at night would be good but it is tough on the camera gear! in low light and the constaint on off of lights is always changing the settings! and there isnt enought pre footage of the chase do to low light! it makes it tough ! me i like to do a squirrel hunt!

[kingfisher 11]

How about some hound hunts for coons. I miss the days of running the dogs through the ski slopes of Antrim County. My dad and still say those were our best memories. Raccoons are abundant, not many do it anymore.
If out of state hunts were considered I might be apt to send some of my ILL and Saskatchewan footing I take each year for free.

[Ranger Ray]

I didn't take the time to read the other posts so excuse me if I duplicate someone.



I think if you were coming from an educational standpoint on a hunt then it would not be necessary to have a kill. Let’s say you were talking stand placements and had video of a hunt that showed the deer funneling thru an area. The focus wouldn’t be on the kill but on the learning experience. That said if your segment was just about the hunt then I would say you could get by with a couple a year with out the kill but need it on the rest to keep up interest.

How to video = not necessary for kill but would be bonus.

Hunt video = kill.



Good luck and expect to see you on TV soon. ;)